Random Political Thread

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Harness
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:48 pm

Jif wrote:
dun dun dun... chips wrote:
Postulio wrote:Texas

so, and this is from someone who makes a point not to keep up with political bullshit, this clairvoyance is absolutely unhelpful.

hahaha


BTW, and this is largely unrelated, but there are 2 distinct visions for America's future:
California, run by hippy liberals for the past 20 years (yes Ahhhhnold was a liberal) and massive welfare state and the highest taxes in the country, burdened by a debt it can't expect to pay off in the next 20 years, and which has been a cesspool for government over-regulation and a loss of personal liberties, and that has been losing legal citizens for 15 years to surrounding states

and

Texas, run by strong conservatives that believe in small government, personal freedom, and low taxes. More jobs have been created in Texas over the last 10 years than in over half the other 49 states COMBINED.

Businesses and people are moving from california to texas (and other nearby low-tax states like Arizona and OK) at an alarming rate. Texas had the largest population and highest % increase in population in the 2010 census for a reason. California's vision is high taxes, low freedoms, high debt, and overbearing government. THis is the model being used at the Federal level currently. Texas has been a beacon of freedom while California is the epitome of a failing state.

Of course Texas isn't perfect and California has a lot going for it, but in terms of the states' philosophies on the role of government, taxes, and regulation, they are polar opposites. The country needs to be more like Texas than California.


I hate double posting like this but I actually want to bring something to the table here other then what Posty or I have so far. A little bit of the other sides one sided views may be in order.

You say that Texas is creating more jobs then all of the other states combined, your not accounting for the fact that a great number of those jobs are minimum wage paying where people can't even afford to live and feed their children, let alone attempt to provide them with healthcare. When it comes to healthcare, everyone in this country now knows that the republicans could care less about families having that and Texas is amongst to lowest states in the country for children insured. Texas only wants to ensure the freedoms for it's people as long as those freedoms conform with the right wing religious standard. As soon as they feel something is upsetting their god your freedoms are now irrelevant. Gay's and pregnant woman do have rights, regardless of what your god thinks.

With Texas high school students droping out more and more frequently, with the lack of respect for womans and gay's rights, minimum wage jobs TAKING OVER and lack of caring about the health of their children, It sounds less and less of a Beacon of Freedom your describing and more like the next Republican created problem the liberals will be blamed for when they can't fix in the 2 years.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:04 pm

Harness wrote:I hate double posting like this but I actually want to bring something to the table here other then what Posty or I have so far. A little bit of the other sides one sided views may be in order.

You say that Texas is creating more jobs then all of the other states combined, your not accounting for the fact that a great number of those jobs are minimum wage paying where people can't even afford to live and feed their children, let alone attempt to provide them with healthcare. When it comes to healthcare, everyone in this country now knows that the republicans could care less about families having that and Texas is amongst to lowest states in the country for children insured. Texas only wants to ensure the freedoms for it's people as long as those freedoms conform with the right wing religious standard. As soon as they feel something is upsetting their god your freedoms are now irrelevant. Gay's and pregnant woman do have rights, regardless of what your god thinks.

With Texas high school students droping out more and more frequently, with the lack of respect for womans and gay's rights, minimum wage jobs TAKING OVER and lack of caring about the health of their children, It sounds less and less of a Beacon of Freedom your describing and more like the next Republican created problem the liberals will be blamed for when they can't fix in the 2 years.

just two things here:

religious freedom is a real thing. something that america was founded on. when you are forcing americans to go against their religious beliefs you are saying that they don't have any religious freedom. I'm sure most conservatives would support and push for healthcare for all if they took out the bit about paying for contraceptives and abortions. Saying that those things should be required to be in everyone's healthcare package is absurd.

Also glad you like killing babies harness. would you change your opinion about it if they started using guns to do the abortions? or maybe they should put the fetus in an electric chair or in a noose?

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:24 pm

Bacon wrote:
Harness wrote:I hate double posting like this but I actually want to bring something to the table here other then what Posty or I have so far. A little bit of the other sides one sided views may be in order.

You say that Texas is creating more jobs then all of the other states combined, your not accounting for the fact that a great number of those jobs are minimum wage paying where people can't even afford to live and feed their children, let alone attempt to provide them with healthcare. When it comes to healthcare, everyone in this country now knows that the republicans could care less about families having that and Texas is amongst to lowest states in the country for children insured. Texas only wants to ensure the freedoms for it's people as long as those freedoms conform with the right wing religious standard. As soon as they feel something is upsetting their god your freedoms are now irrelevant. Gay's and pregnant woman do have rights, regardless of what your god thinks.

With Texas high school students droping out more and more frequently, with the lack of respect for womans and gay's rights, minimum wage jobs TAKING OVER and lack of caring about the health of their children, It sounds less and less of a Beacon of Freedom your describing and more like the next Republican created problem the liberals will be blamed for when they can't fix in the 2 years.

just two things here:

religious freedom is a real thing. something that america was founded on. when you are forcing americans to go against their religious beliefs you are saying that they don't have any religious freedom. I'm sure most conservatives would support and push for healthcare for all if they took out the bit about paying for contraceptives and abortions. Saying that those things should be required to be in everyone's healthcare package is absurd.

Also glad you like killing babies harness. would you change your opinion about it if they started using guns to do the abortions? or maybe they should put the fetus in an electric chair or in a noose?



Killing babies? I'm strongly pro life, a stance I have taken here before. The difference between myself and most conservatives is that I actually respect the decisions that our law makers have made. Especially the ones from decades ago. As for putting babies in the electric chair, it really wouldn't surprise me if Texas would do something like that since they seem to have no problem punishing people by killing them.

Bacon, sorry if I touched a nerve here with the whole "like killing babies" thing. I respect the decisions made weather I agree or disagree and to have lawmakers constantly attempting to undermine those decisions is disguising.

Religious freedom is a real thing and, sorry, but that freedom is for all religious beliefs and non beliefs, not just Christianity. Religion has no place in government and only hinders the progress of mankind as a whole. So essentially, peoples religious beliefs are completely and totally irrelevant in all decision making. Please keep your primitive, shallow minded superstitions at home where they belong. I don't ask for laws to be made because my niece is afraid of the boogy man. You should feel obligated not to make laws because your afraid of your invisible man in the sky.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Fist of the eskimo » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:23 pm

Harness wrote:You might as well tattoo yourself "please don't listen to my one sided opinions".


agreee

This seems fitting - Why don't we do everything like Texas. Then we'd all be in jail for some dumb drunk comments

http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/27/texas ... for-months

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Postulio » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:15 pm

Harness wrote:
Bacon wrote:
Harness wrote:I hate double posting like this but I actually want to bring something to the table here other then what Posty or I have so far. A little bit of the other sides one sided views may be in order.

You say that Texas is creating more jobs then all of the other states combined, your not accounting for the fact that a great number of those jobs are minimum wage paying where people can't even afford to live and feed their children, let alone attempt to provide them with healthcare. When it comes to healthcare, everyone in this country now knows that the republicans could care less about families having that and Texas is amongst to lowest states in the country for children insured. Texas only wants to ensure the freedoms for it's people as long as those freedoms conform with the right wing religious standard. As soon as they feel something is upsetting their god your freedoms are now irrelevant. Gay's and pregnant woman do have rights, regardless of what your god thinks.

With Texas high school students droping out more and more frequently, with the lack of respect for womans and gay's rights, minimum wage jobs TAKING OVER and lack of caring about the health of their children, It sounds less and less of a Beacon of Freedom your describing and more like the next Republican created problem the liberals will be blamed for when they can't fix in the 2 years.

just two things here:

religious freedom is a real thing. something that america was founded on. when you are forcing americans to go against their religious beliefs you are saying that they don't have any religious freedom. I'm sure most conservatives would support and push for healthcare for all if they took out the bit about paying for contraceptives and abortions. Saying that those things should be required to be in everyone's healthcare package is absurd.

Also glad you like killing babies harness. would you change your opinion about it if they started using guns to do the abortions? or maybe they should put the fetus in an electric chair or in a noose?



Killing babies? I'm strongly pro life, a stance I have taken here before. The difference between myself and most conservatives is that I actually respect the decisions that our law makers have made. Especially the ones from decades ago. As for putting babies in the electric chair, it really wouldn't surprise me if Texas would do something like that since they seem to have no problem punishing people by killing them.

Bacon, sorry if I touched a nerve here with the whole "like killing babies" thing. I respect the decisions made weather I agree or disagree and to have lawmakers constantly attempting to undermine those decisions is disguising.

Religious freedom is a real thing and, sorry, but that freedom is for all religious beliefs and non beliefs, not just Christianity. Religion has no place in government and only hinders the progress of mankind as a whole. So essentially, peoples religious beliefs are completely and totally irrelevant in all decision making. Please keep your primitive, shallow minded superstitions at home where they belong. I don't ask for laws to be made because my niece is afraid of the boogy man. You should feel obligated not to make laws because your afraid of your invisible man in the sky.


I don't understand why a man was ever asked if Abortion was 'Ok', because to be totally honest that's HER body not mine and whatever SHE wants to do with it is her business.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Darkfoxx » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:00 pm

Postulio wrote:I don't understand why a man was ever asked if Abortion was 'Ok', because to be totally honest that's HER body not mine and whatever SHE wants to do with it is her business.

Amen brother. Pro-choice all the way.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:34 am

Darkfoxx wrote:
Postulio wrote:I don't understand why a man was ever asked if Abortion was 'Ok', because to be totally honest that's HER body not mine and whatever SHE wants to do with it is her business.

Amen brother. Pro-choice all the way.

accept you are literally murdering a baby. literally. it's a woman's choice sure but the baby has no choice whatsoever in the matter. that is absurd. it's murder.

And if you say that it isn't a real person or whatever let me say 2 things.

1: approximately 6 weeks after conception the heart starts beating. If you are medically dead because your heart stops, why can you not be medically alive once your heart starts beating?

2: have you watched minority report? think of that idea where someone will probably commit a murder in the movie after it has been foretold by the precogs. Next take that idea and put it towards babies and stuff. When a baby is conceived, there is an extremely strong chance that it will be born. for the purpose of this discussion we are going to omit things like accidents and still births. They are irrelevant. If you have an abortion you are preventing the fetus from coming to full term and being born. you are killing it and the chance that it has of being born. you are killing it.

once again i pose the question: would you change your mind about abortion if the used a gun? or a guillotine?

And if i take my religious beliefs out of politics and stop pushing for things like no abortion, will other people take their things out too? like making me pay for people's abortions and birth control? I even have to pay for gay people to have benefits now. as much as you think those things are right, I don't and I shouldn't have to pay for them. What is there that other people are paying for for me that they don't like? is there something?

and sorry i attacked you so harshly about the abortion bit harness. i didn't even realize that you were pro life. i just saw it and it kind of touched a nerve. sorry man

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:40 am

brief papes interjection:
our government was created with the sole purposed of keeping religion out of any decision making, and while it will, of course, come to influence people's lifes and therefore laws, that doesnt mean that laws should be created on religious principles. hence: gay marriage. taking away a right for no reason outside of religion. theres something wrong here. protect your religion in the church.

second: im pro, erm, stuff. killing people is bad. taking away someone elses rights is bad. my opinion has been this: just because its has biological movement (ie the heartbeat) doesnt make it living. people in comas are 'living' by that definition, but do they have a say in what happens to them? no. might they at some point down the road? potentially, who knows. who gets the decision to pull the plug? the family. you hope that they are informed enough and its a tough decision, but it happens. a lot of the time due to the lack of ability to care for that person.
how does that tie into the baby? well, without a way of expressing consciousness, who gets to make the call? the mother. all you can do is hope that shes got the scruples to make the right choice, since there is no way anybody else unrelated should have any say in the matter.

i like to take a personal view as well: birth control isnt perfect, even when used responsibly. if gabi were to get pregnant by some fluke in probability, if we decided to keep the kid, itd end our lives, no question asked. i can barely afford to live when i do, a kid would push me into absolute destitution. wed be stuck, no chance to finish our careers, no chance to save any money. even if we had the kid and put it up for adoption, wed be back about a good year dealing with the pregnancy which, once again, i couldnt afford. of course itd be an informed decision, and not made lightly, but itd be necessary for the health and well being of gabi and i. are you really willing to take peoples lives away in exchange for stopping the few people that abuse the system?
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:42 am

dun dun dun... chips wrote:brief papes interjection:
our government was created with the sole purposed of keeping religion out of any decision making, and while it will, of course, come to influence people's lifes and therefore laws, that doesnt mean that laws should be created on religious principles. hence: gay marriage. taking away a right for no reason outside of religion. theres something wrong here. protect your religion in the church.

second: im pro, erm, stuff. killing people is bad. taking away someone elses rights is bad. my opinion has been this: just because its has biological movement (ie the heartbeat) doesnt make it living. people in comas are 'living' by that definition, but do they have a say in what happens to them? no. might they at some point down the road? potentially, who knows. who gets the decision to pull the plug? the family. you hope that they are informed enough and its a tough decision, but it happens. a lot of the time due to the lack of ability to care for that person.
how does that tie into the baby? well, without a way of expressing consciousness, who gets to make the call? the mother. all you can do is hope that shes got the scruples to make the right choice, since there is no way anybody else unrelated should have any say in the matter.

i like to take a personal view as well: birth control isnt perfect, even when used responsibly. if gabi were to get pregnant by some fluke in probability, if we decided to keep the kid, itd end our lives, no question asked. i can barely afford to live when i do, a kid would push me into absolute destitution. wed be stuck, no chance to finish our careers, no chance to save any money. even if we had the kid and put it up for adoption, wed be back about a good year dealing with the pregnancy which, once again, i couldnt afford. of course itd be an informed decision, and not made lightly, but itd be necessary for the health and well being of gabi and i. are you really willing to take peoples lives away in exchange for stopping the few people that abuse the system?

First thing is sure protect our religion inside the church. but so many things outside of the religion that attack us including laws that force us to pay for birth control and abortion. How is that fair? I'm not saying that we should make a law making abortions illegal but forcing me to go directly against my core values and beliefs is ridiculous and unfair.

And second i know how you feel about you and gabi potentially having a kid. i know it would be devastating to you. it would be difficult for me and christy to deal with if it happened to us. The difference is we are willing to take responsibility for our actions. we are willing to deal with the consequences of having sex. IMO if you aren't willing to deal with those consequences then you shouldn't be having sex. i'm sorry if that is hard for you to deal with but is immediate personal gratification really worth the life a human being?

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:44 am

Bacon wrote:
Darkfoxx wrote:
Postulio wrote:I don't understand why a man was ever asked if Abortion was 'Ok', because to be totally honest that's HER body not mine and whatever SHE wants to do with it is her business.

Amen brother. Pro-choice all the way.

accept you are literally murdering a baby. literally. it's a woman's choice sure but the baby has no choice whatsoever in the matter. that is absurd. it's murder.


once again i pose the question: would you change your mind about abortion if the used a gun? or a guillotine?




I would feel no different about any instrument of death however, this question is irrelevant. Guillotines and guns are not used by the government to kill people anymore. To compare these things is simply an attempt to touch on peoples beliefs on things other then abortion, to bring something else into the argument. It's a diversion tactic that I feel should not be used.

*EDIT* (question already answered)
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:08 pm

Harness wrote:
Bacon wrote:accept you are literally murdering a baby. literally. it's a woman's choice sure but the baby has no choice whatsoever in the matter. that is absurd. it's murder.


once again i pose the question: would you change your mind about abortion if the used a gun? or a guillotine?




I would feel no different about any instrument of death however, this question is irrelevant. Guillotines and guns are not used by the government to kill people anymore. To compare these things is simply an attempt to touch on peoples beliefs on things other then abortion, to bring something else into the argument. It's a diversion tactic that I feel should not be used.

*EDIT* (question already answered)

i can see where this might be true but i disagree. i believe that people don't really see abortion as murder. one reason being they associate murder with guns, knives, etc. most people don't know the abortion process and just see it as removing some unwanted thing from a woman. if they instead use instruments of killing to perform abortions then people might see it for what it actually is. murder

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:12 pm

Bacon wrote:
dun dun dun... chips wrote:brief papes interjection:
our government was created with the sole purposed of keeping religion out of any decision making, and while it will, of course, come to influence people's lifes and therefore laws, that doesnt mean that laws should be created on religious principles. hence: gay marriage. taking away a right for no reason outside of religion. theres something wrong here. protect your religion in the church.

second: im pro, erm, stuff. killing people is bad. taking away someone elses rights is bad. my opinion has been this: just because its has biological movement (ie the heartbeat) doesnt make it living. people in comas are 'living' by that definition, but do they have a say in what happens to them? no. might they at some point down the road? potentially, who knows. who gets the decision to pull the plug? the family. you hope that they are informed enough and its a tough decision, but it happens. a lot of the time due to the lack of ability to care for that person.
how does that tie into the baby? well, without a way of expressing consciousness, who gets to make the call? the mother. all you can do is hope that shes got the scruples to make the right choice, since there is no way anybody else unrelated should have any say in the matter.

i like to take a personal view as well: birth control isnt perfect, even when used responsibly. if gabi were to get pregnant by some fluke in probability, if we decided to keep the kid, itd end our lives, no question asked. i can barely afford to live when i do, a kid would push me into absolute destitution. wed be stuck, no chance to finish our careers, no chance to save any money. even if we had the kid and put it up for adoption, wed be back about a good year dealing with the pregnancy which, once again, i couldnt afford. of course itd be an informed decision, and not made lightly, but itd be necessary for the health and well being of gabi and i. are you really willing to take peoples lives away in exchange for stopping the few people that abuse the system?

First thing is sure protect our religion inside the church. but so many things outside of the religion that attack us including laws that force us to pay for birth control and abortion. How is that fair? I'm not saying that we should make a law making abortions illegal but forcing me to go directly against my core values and beliefs is ridiculous and unfair.

And second i know how you feel about you and gabi potentially having a kid. i know it would be devastating to you. it would be difficult for me and christy to deal with if it happened to us. The difference is we are willing to take responsibility for our actions. we are willing to deal with the consequences of having sex. IMO if you aren't willing to deal with those consequences then you shouldn't be having sex. i'm sorry if that is hard for you to deal with but is immediate personal gratification really worth the life a human being?



Birth control has more uses then preventing pregnancies. I could copy and paste from some website stating all of the uses but you can look it up if you wanted and the abortions paid for are is special circumstances such as rape and health conditions. They also made religious groups happy by making it so they don't have to contribute to it. Fewer abortions, more woman getting higher education and other health benefits are also great reasons as well. In the long run, I feel that this addition to the Affordable Care Act will have great benefits to society and the only downfall is the wallet of someone who believes in a god.

Say someone you love gets pregnant and goes to the doctor where it is discovered that there is a high percentage chance the pregnancy could kill the mother. I feel the abortion should be covered by healthcare and so should medication needed to ensure no further pregnancies could take place. In a few years, modern medicine cures her condition and she can get pregnant again. In this situation, not only have you saved this persons life but also made it so they can achieve any goals they may have sought out.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:33 pm

Bacon wrote:First thing is sure protect our religion inside the church. but so many things outside of the religion that attack us including laws that force us to pay for birth control and abortion. How is that fair? I'm not saying that we should make a law making abortions illegal but forcing me to go directly against my core values and beliefs is ridiculous and unfair.

And second i know how you feel about you and gabi potentially having a kid. i know it would be devastating to you. it would be difficult for me and christy to deal with if it happened to us. The difference is we are willing to take responsibility for our actions. we are willing to deal with the consequences of having sex. IMO if you aren't willing to deal with those consequences then you shouldn't be having sex. i'm sorry if that is hard for you to deal with but is immediate personal gratification really worth the life a human being?


im confused, you dont have to pay for birth control if you dont want it, and neither do churches if they dont want to. im not sure what that has to do with anything. i wasnt talking about churches and birth control, i was talking about a clear and distinct separation between any religious beliefs and the laws that are written.

but watch it, drew, you are straying onto thin ice with accusations like that. questioning my political opinions is one thing, but attacking my morals and questioning my responsibility is crossing a line. you are assuming that we would use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card, when it couldnt be further from the truth. do i think abortions are ethical? no. it would tear me apart. could i live with the life style that id be able to provide a child? no. would i be able to deal with the stress that going through pregnancy would cause gabi? no. the act in itself would be its own consequence, but not for any foolishness of my own. birth control isnt perfect, but its a risk im willing to take to be able to show my love for someone so deeply. you also assume that sex is just, and i quote, 'immediate personal gratification,' and i feel you must be missing the point if you call it that. call me a romantic or naive if you will, but its some of the time that i feel closest to her.

my question, though, still stands, and you have yet to reply to it: why do you have such a stark defense of unborn babies, when you, most likely, have such an ironically hypocritical view of the child after its born? or of people that are incapacitated due to health? when your teen contemplates suicide, do you leave the choice up to him? remember, you are taking away the parents arbitration before birth, and now its more conscious of its world then it was then. are you going to make exceptions because its convenient?
of course you dont let him, because there are people with more experience with the world that have the end say. why then, if the parents, who have significantly more experience with the world, and personal connection to the issue, dont believe that they have the means to take care of a child, or, if the case stands, that not getting an abortion will break them, what right do you have to tell them what to do?
i dont believe that killing people is correct, which is why i still stand by the efforts of the mid ground people right now. we need to define life, and no, i dont mean the 'well, the heart is going' life, because people in comas arent living, i mean a 'this person is able to comprehend the world around it' definition. once the child passes beyond that point, its murder. up until that point, though, its the parents call.
of course you will get abuse, but, once again, is taking away that right for the people that need it, based on money, rape, etc, based on the small number of people that abuse it?

edit: whoops, played over harnesses post a little.



also
im making a statement about the condition of this thread and the basis that it was created. this thread was supposed to be used to peacefully bounce ideas off each other, since you have people like jif and i who are so starkly opposite about things when we first started. hes changed my opinions about alot of things, and i know ive influenced some of his thoughts. thats the point, though, we are supposed to be logically changing arguments based on a detailed string of facts. there have been some times where this thread has strayed from that peaceful idea, and personal attacks are becoming more and more common, which has nothing to do with the basis of this thread.
i have a great deal of respect for you all, and consider you all to be some of my closest friends. i hold a great deal of respect for jif, even though he disagrees with me on so many notes, he creates an argument and presents it, no emotion involved. whether you agree or disagree is your call, but its your responsibility to present a counter argument, not attack jif.
if the lack of logical arguing continues, it becomes my vote to shut down the thread, and i feel that foxx would back me on this one, since if we arent responsible enough to get along and use this thread for the purpose in which it was created, we shouldnt talk about this kind of stuff.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:03 pm

Harness wrote:Birth control has more uses then preventing pregnancies. I could copy and paste from some website stating all of the uses but you can look it up if you wanted and the abortions paid for are is special circumstances such as rape and health conditions. They also made religious groups happy by making it so they don't have to contribute to it. Fewer abortions, more woman getting higher education and other health benefits are also great reasons as well. In the long run, I feel that this addition to the Affordable Care Act will have great benefits to society and the only downfall is the wallet of someone who believes in a god.

Say someone you love gets pregnant and goes to the doctor where it is discovered that there is a high percentage chance the pregnancy could kill the mother. I feel the abortion should be covered by healthcare and so should medication needed to ensure no further pregnancies could take place. In a few years, modern medicine cures her condition and she can get pregnant again. In this situation, not only have you saved this persons life but also made it so they can achieve any goals they may have sought out.

I do know it has multiple uses. my wife is taking it right now to hopefully increase our chances of having a kid in the future. and sure there are special cases (like rape and death) and I don't know everything on how to solve them. However, there are more people in the world getting abortions because it is convenient for them rather than for medical reasons.

dun dun dun... chips wrote:im confused, you dont have to pay for birth control if you dont want it, and neither do churches if they dont want to. im not sure what that has to do with anything. i wasnt talking about churches and birth control, i was talking about a clear and distinct separation between any religious beliefs and the laws that are written.

but watch it, drew, you are straying onto thin ice with accusations like that. questioning my political opinions is one thing, but attacking my morals and questioning my responsibility is crossing a line. you are assuming that we would use it as a get-out-of-jail-free card, when it couldnt be further from the truth. do i think abortions are ethical? no. it would tear me apart. could i live with the life style that id be able to provide a child? no. would i be able to deal with the stress that going through pregnancy would cause gabi? no. the act in itself would be its own consequence, but not for any foolishness of my own. birth control isnt perfect, but its a risk im willing to take to be able to show my love for someone so deeply. you also assume that sex is just, and i quote, 'immediate personal gratification,' and i feel you must be missing the point if you call it that. call me a romantic or naive if you will, but its some of the time that i feel closest to her.

my question, though, still stands, and you have yet to reply to it: why do you have such a stark defense of unborn babies, when you, most likely, have such an ironically hypocritical view of the child after its born? or of people that are incapacitated due to health? when your teen contemplates suicide, do you leave the choice up to him? remember, you are taking away the parents arbitration before birth, and now its more conscious of its world then it was then. are you going to make exceptions because its convenient?
of course you dont let him, because there are people with more experience with the world that have the end say. why then, if the parents, who have significantly more experience with the world, and personal connection to the issue, dont believe that they have the means to take care of a child, or, if the case stands, that not getting an abortion will break them, what right do you have to tell them what to do?
i dont believe that killing people is correct, which is why i still stand by the efforts of the mid ground people right now. we need to define life, and no, i dont mean the 'well, the heart is going' life, because people in comas arent living, i mean a 'this person is able to comprehend the world around it' definition. once the child passes beyond that point, its murder. up until that point, though, its the parents call.
of course you will get abuse, but, once again, is taking away that right for the people that need it, based on money, rape, etc, based on the small number of people that abuse it?

edit: whoops, played over harnesses post a little.



also
im making a statement about the condition of this thread and the basis that it was created. this thread was supposed to be used to peacefully bounce ideas off each other, since you have people like jif and i who are so starkly opposite about things when we first started. hes changed my opinions about alot of things, and i know ive influenced some of his thoughts. thats the point, though, we are supposed to be logically changing arguments based on a detailed string of facts. there have been some times where this thread has strayed from that peaceful idea, and personal attacks are becoming more and more common, which has nothing to do with the basis of this thread.
i have a great deal of respect for you all, and consider you all to be some of my closest friends. i hold a great deal of respect for jif, even though he disagrees with me on so many notes, he creates an argument and presents it, no emotion involved. whether you agree or disagree is your call, but its your responsibility to present a counter argument, not attack jif.
if the lack of logical arguing continues, it becomes my vote to shut down the thread, and i feel that foxx would back me on this one, since if we arent responsible enough to get along and use this thread for the purpose in which it was created, we shouldnt talk about this kind of stuff.

There are certain christian companies who are forced to give their employees certain healthcare benefits. some of these benefits include contraceptives. This is what i am talking about mainly. this is imposing on our religious freedoms.

sorry if i sounded too aggressive or attacking. it was honestly a pretty generalized statement about people. I'm glad that you see sex as more than just personal gratification but i can guarantee you that there are way too many people in this world that only see it as that.

my voice is so loud for the unborn because they have no voice whatsoever. their voice is stolen from them before they can even use it. And m overall goal is the preservation of life. whether it is a fetus, a really old person with Alzheimers, or someone in a coma. They are all in some sense alive and everything should be done to protect their life. Sure it may be difficult for a family to deal with having someone who is brain dead but if they pull the plug on that person they are killing them. preservation of life.

and yeah this thread probably needs to stop soon. sure I may have had some personal attacks against some of you and i'm sorry. i don't mean to be hateful in any way. posty's original post was pretty charged and kind of set me off a bit because i knew relatively what he was referring to.

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Harness
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:20 pm

dun dun dun... chips wrote:edit: whoops, played over harnesses post a little.



I think there was a period where all three of us were typing, all at the same time :)

I do not think the thread should be closed, not for a second. A topic came up that people are passionate and very opinionated about. That passion can come out a little harsh at times but we are all adults and should be able to determine that were are not out to hurt each other. I don't often post here not because I don't inform myself of whats going on or because I often hate on all living creatures, but because I have very strong anti religious views and I have no other way of describing those views without belittling believers. I came out of my hole because I refused to leave the discussion where it was and likely, very soon I will go back to my hole :thumbsup:
I type a bunch of shit then people go fuk themselves


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