Random Political Thread

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Darkfoxx
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Darkfoxx » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:01 pm

No closing the thread, you guys keep debating. This is the point of this thread. Keep all of this shit in here and forget it once you leave.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Jif » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:25 pm

holy shit what did i start????

1st- I'm atheist. I dont believe there is a god, period. I do, however, believe that a church shouldn't be forced to pay into a system that forces it to pay for things it doesn't believe in, like birth control. I also don't always believe in the things conservative christians push, thoguh to be honest i do support their movement to restore the nuclear family and promote religion (not through government) because i believe christianity, overall, is an extreme net positive for the morality of a people. I do not adhere to many of the moral beliefs, but those i do disagree with are not really harmful to others or society. I have the same basic moral code preached in church. Many other atheists do not. THis is why i like religion. I think it's an overall good for society despite my disagreements.

My remarks regarding Texas were mostly meant in a political sense, and i do agree that I do not want religion present in government. I do not agree with everything the state has passed into law, but in terms of non-religious government philosophy, the state and myself could not be more aligned.

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:45 pm

Darkfoxx wrote:No closing the thread, you guys keep debating. This is the point of this thread. Keep all of this shit in here and forget it once you leave.

i would like this to be a place for argument, though, keep it impersonal. logical argument only. i can deal with being passionate about something, but let it fuel an argument, dont get emotional. just because we all know each other well doesnt mean we shouldnt still be respectful. having strong opinions is very different from saying someone is wrong for what they believe. we arent trying to hurt anybody, we are trying to change opinions. so, like i said, lets keep it peaceful, logical argument. powerful, sure, but respectful.

final thoughts on abortion, since we seem to have driven that stake well into the ground, my opinion has always been: if you end up helping people that need it, even if they are the minority, it can be worth it. like i said, i have absolutely no problem putting limits on this, because i do believe that its a terrible thing to do, but im not going to say that im more informed about the decision than somebody involved. should there be time limits? i think so. should be be brainstorming with the organizations that give it so its the last possible option? yes, most definitely. should the right be removed completely? i dont believe so.

this is, however, completely removed on my rather cynical view on life, which we wont get into because ill probably piss off everyone here in one fell swoop.

and i agree with you completely, jif, while i wouldnt go as far as to say that im atheist, i most definitely am agnostic, but i wont try to say that religion is bad. used inappropriately, yes, but i have a good deal of respect with, for the most part, what religion tries to do. kindness above all else: sounds good to me. i do consider myself both extremely old fashioned in some ways, and yet very controversial in others.

in conclusion, lets keep it peaceful, mates. i love arguing with you all, we all have differing opinions, which is great, and the arguments to back them up, which is equally great. just be kind.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:42 am

dun dun dun... chips wrote:
Darkfoxx wrote:No closing the thread, you guys keep debating. This is the point of this thread. Keep all of this shit in here and forget it once you leave.

i would like this to be a place for argument, though, keep it impersonal. logical argument only. i can deal with being passionate about something, but let it fuel an argument, dont get emotional. just because we all know each other well doesnt mean we shouldnt still be respectful. having strong opinions is very different from saying someone is wrong for what they believe. we arent trying to hurt anybody, we are trying to change opinions. so, like i said, lets keep it peaceful, logical argument. powerful, sure, but respectful.

final thoughts on abortion, since we seem to have driven that stake well into the ground, my opinion has always been: if you end up helping people that need it, even if they are the minority, it can be worth it. like i said, i have absolutely no problem putting limits on this, because i do believe that its a terrible thing to do, but im not going to say that im more informed about the decision than somebody involved. should there be time limits? i think so. should be be brainstorming with the organizations that give it so its the last possible option? yes, most definitely. should the right be removed completely? i dont believe so.

in conclusion, lets keep it peaceful, mates. i love arguing with you all, we all have differing opinions, which is great, and the arguments to back them up, which is equally great. just be kind.



Be kind and respectful yes but please don't tell me what your opinion of a logical discussion is. Theses forums are open to all forms of dialogue and will never be moderated based on how intelligent someone else thinks your are. It's your choice to entertain a subject you feel is not logical.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:16 pm

Jif wrote:holy shit what did i start????

1st- I'm atheist. I dont believe there is a god, period. I do, however, believe that a church shouldn't be forced to pay into a system that forces it to pay for things it doesn't believe in, like birth control. I also don't always believe in the things conservative christians push, thoguh to be honest i do support their movement to restore the nuclear family and promote religion (not through government) because i believe christianity, overall, is an extreme net positive for the morality of a people. I do not adhere to many of the moral beliefs, but those i do disagree with are not really harmful to others or society. I have the same basic moral code preached in church. Many other atheists do not. THis is why i like religion. I think it's an overall good for society despite my disagreements.

My remarks regarding Texas were mostly meant in a political sense, and i do agree that I do not want religion present in government. I do not agree with everything the state has passed into law, but in terms of non-religious government philosophy, the state and myself could not be more aligned.



Again, my thoughts on religion and religious organizations are very harsh and likely will offend most people. Those opinions are listed below.....

I'm going to try and only respond to a previous post in order to keep my posts short and not go off on a silly little rant.

I have no sympathy for what the church has to pay for. Their entire existence is based on brain washing people and attempting to manipulate natural born ignorance to expand on their superstition. Those beliefs are expected by most believers to be front and foremost in everyone lives, including people outside the church.This is a crime in my book and god should stand trial for crimes against humanity. For religion being allowed to brainwash and rape someones free will, I feel the church should have no consideration at all in lawmaking and should pay for the same things everyone else does.

If a person is made in to a christian, or any other religion, when they are too young to understand fact from fiction, who's to say what their true beliefs would have been? Their beliefs are not a net positive for humanity, they are a tragic byproduct of people withholding someones free will. Morality does not come from a book, right and wrong is something you feel inside you as a part of nature, not an imaginary being watching what you do. If anything, religion offers people an escape from the wrong they commit and an ability to not hold themselves accountable. Commit an awful act, repent your sins in the church of god, commit awful acts again.

Jif, in your post you mentioned that many other atheists do not have a moral code they adhere to. Can you elaborate further on this? Every atheist I have ever known, which is a very promising number, always live by a moral code without god telling them what it is.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Jif » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:39 pm

Harness wrote:
Jif wrote:holy shit what did i start????

1st- I'm atheist. I dont believe there is a god, period. I do, however, believe that a church shouldn't be forced to pay into a system that forces it to pay for things it doesn't believe in, like birth control. I also don't always believe in the things conservative christians push, thoguh to be honest i do support their movement to restore the nuclear family and promote religion (not through government) because i believe christianity, overall, is an extreme net positive for the morality of a people. I do not adhere to many of the moral beliefs, but those i do disagree with are not really harmful to others or society. I have the same basic moral code preached in church. Many other atheists do not. THis is why i like religion. I think it's an overall good for society despite my disagreements.

My remarks regarding Texas were mostly meant in a political sense, and i do agree that I do not want religion present in government. I do not agree with everything the state has passed into law, but in terms of non-religious government philosophy, the state and myself could not be more aligned.



Again, my thoughts on religion and religious organizations are very harsh and likely will offend most people. Those opinions are listed below.....

I'm going to try and only respond to a previous post in order to keep my posts short and not go off on a silly little rant.

I have no sympathy for what the church has to pay for. Their entire existence is based on brain washing people and attempting to manipulate natural born ignorance to expand on their superstition. Those beliefs are expected by most believers to be front and foremost in everyone lives, including people outside the church.This is a crime in my book and god should stand trial for crimes against humanity. For religion being allowed to brainwash and rape someones free will, I feel the church should have no consideration at all in lawmaking and should pay for the same things everyone else does.

If a person is made in to a christian, or any other religion, when they are too young to understand fact from fiction, who's to say what their true beliefs would have been? Their beliefs are not a net positive for humanity, they are a tragic byproduct of people withholding someones free will. Morality does not come from a book, right and wrong is something you feel inside you as a part of nature, not an imaginary being watching what you do. If anything, religion offers people an escape from the wrong they commit and an ability to not hold themselves accountable. Commit an awful act, repent your sins in the church of god, commit awful acts again.

Jif, in your post you mentioned that many other atheists do not have a moral code they adhere to. Can you elaborate further on this? Every atheist I have ever known, which is a very promising number, always live by a moral code without god telling them what it is.


What i meant was that they don't adhere to the same moral code as myself, which is closer to that of the church than to many other atheists. I was brought up in a religious family, and while i dont believe there is a god, i do believe in the morality taught by the christian churches. I choose not to follow many of them (drinking, gambling, profanity, etc) but i do appreciate the idea behind them. I also know that Christianity can truly help people suffering from addiction, lose/tragedy, etc. I look at it as a tool that betters society for those willing to follow the guidelines and 'rules'. I don't think atheism means one has a 'lesser' moral code, but since there isn't a commonality amongst the morality of atheists, it's difficult to generalize them. They are scattered all across the map of morality to a much greater extent, generally, than Christians. This makes the differences harder to compare.

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Darkfoxx » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:18 pm

Harness wrote:I have no sympathy for what the church has to pay for. Their entire existence is based on brain washing people and attempting to manipulate natural born ignorance to expand on their superstition. Those beliefs are expected by most believers to be front and foremost in everyone lives, including people outside the church.This is a crime in my book and god should stand trial for crimes against humanity. For religion being allowed to brainwash and rape someones free will, I feel the church should have no consideration at all in lawmaking and should pay for the same things everyone else does.

If a person is made in to a christian, or any other religion, when they are too young to understand fact from fiction, who's to say what their true beliefs would have been? Their beliefs are not a net positive for humanity, they are a tragic byproduct of people withholding someones free will. Morality does not come from a book, right and wrong is something you feel inside you as a part of nature, not an imaginary being watching what you do. If anything, religion offers people an escape from the wrong they commit and an ability to not hold themselves accountable. Commit an awful act, repent your sins in the church of god, commit awful acts again.

Truth. I couldn't say it better myself.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:44 pm

Darkfoxx wrote:
Harness wrote:I have no sympathy for what the church has to pay for. Their entire existence is based on brain washing people and attempting to manipulate natural born ignorance to expand on their superstition. Those beliefs are expected by most believers to be front and foremost in everyone lives, including people outside the church.This is a crime in my book and god should stand trial for crimes against humanity. For religion being allowed to brainwash and rape someones free will, I feel the church should have no consideration at all in lawmaking and should pay for the same things everyone else does.

If a person is made in to a christian, or any other religion, when they are too young to understand fact from fiction, who's to say what their true beliefs would have been? Their beliefs are not a net positive for humanity, they are a tragic byproduct of people withholding someones free will. Morality does not come from a book, right and wrong is something you feel inside you as a part of nature, not an imaginary being watching what you do. If anything, religion offers people an escape from the wrong they commit and an ability to not hold themselves accountable. Commit an awful act, repent your sins in the church of god, commit awful acts again.

Truth. I couldn't say it better myself.

It's not a truth. it's an opinion.

why should god stand trial for crimes that we humans commit? god doesn't force us to expect that everyone should be like us. that is just how humans are. that bit just doesn't make any sense to me sorry harness. and as far as free will goes I have 100% of my free will and so do you. each of us uses different things to make our free decisions. just because mine is using the church why is that wrong? and if you say it is because we do things like try to prevent abortions and that doing so is an attack on women then IMO you are the one being brainwashed. Abortion is devastating for many women who have them. and that is a fact.

If there was no church then whoever did "sin->confession/whatever->sin->repeat" would still do the same thing. There just would be no middle part. they wouldn't care they would just keep doing it. i don't understand how this is an argument against religion. the only change in the person's life is that they would claim to be sorry for what they did

overall harness when i read your posts i get the feeling you are mainly referring to groups like the westboro baptist church? is that true? if i hope you know those people are a minority in the whole religious world and shouldn't be able to call themselves christian imo

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Fist of the eskimo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:15 pm

this is still a political thread right?

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:21 pm

Bacon wrote:
why should god stand trial for crimes that we humans commit? god doesn't force us to expect that everyone should be like us. that is just how humans are. that bit just doesn't make any sense to me sorry harness. and as far as free will goes I have 100% of my free will and so do you. each of us uses different things to make our free decisions. just because mine is using the church why is that wrong? and if you say it is because we do things like try to prevent abortions and that doing so is an attack on women then IMO you are the one being brainwashed. Abortion is devastating for many women who have them. and that is a fact.


The brainwashing comment is in reference to passing religious beliefs off as fact on children who can't distinguish the difference between fact and fiction. Once a child is brainwashed, you have removed their right to free will by implanting your beliefs in to them at an age where they are easily influenced. IMO, this should be a crime. A childs mind should be considered intellectual property that cannot have lifelong mythology passed off as fact unto it. (please don't argue this, I realize it's completely absurd to tell people what they can teach their children). I just threw "god should stand trial" out there because, in all honesty, I didn't expect anyone to comment on it (lol sorry). Can they choose what they want to believe when they get older? Of course they can but the beliefs installed onto them makes every attempt to create a fear of god that will force them to believe for the rest of their lives. You have to see the truth in that final statement.

If I am in a religious discussion with a believer I always ask the same question, "why do you believe in god"? They almost always answer the question the same, "because I don't want to go to hell". This is almost always first response they give, and give it before they really think about the question. They are brainwashed.

The dangers associated with a proper abortion procedure are only the dangers associated with any procedure. A proper abortion is a safe outpatient procedure that has a great medical track record. There are of course risks involved but there are also risks involved with getting your tonsils out as well.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Darkfoxx » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:38 pm

He's saying that children should choose what they want (or don't want) to believe in and not be indoctrinated in a certain religion.
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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:20 am

Harness wrote:The brainwashing comment is in reference to passing religious beliefs off as fact on children who can't distinguish the difference between fact and fiction. Once a child is brainwashed, you have removed their right to free will by implanting your beliefs in to them at an age where they are easily influenced. IMO, this should be a crime. A childs mind should be considered intellectual property that cannot have lifelong mythology passed off as fact unto it. (please don't argue this, I realize it's completely absurd to tell people what they can teach their children). I just threw "god should stand trial" out there because, in all honesty, I didn't expect anyone to comment on it (lol sorry). Can they choose what they want to believe when they get older? Of course they can but the beliefs installed onto them makes every attempt to create a fear of god that will force them to believe for the rest of their lives. You have to see the truth in that final statement.

If I am in a religious discussion with a believer I always ask the same question, "why do you believe in god"? They almost always answer the question the same, "because I don't want to go to hell". This is almost always first response they give, and give it before they really think about the question. They are brainwashed.

The dangers associated with a proper abortion procedure are only the dangers associated with any procedure. A proper abortion is a safe outpatient procedure that has a great medical track record. There are of course risks involved but there are also risks involved with getting your tonsils out as well.

I won't argue your point about teaching kids religion at a young age. I can see how you think it is brainwashing. It would be disappointing to me if someone said that they believed in god because they don't want to go to hell. they are basically missing the point.

and i was talking about the abortion thing because many people consider the pro-life people to be people who hate women. and i meant abortions are devastating psychologically. sure there are always safe ways to complete abortions but the psychological response is gonna be there no matter what.

me personally I was raised catholic. i went to church everyday when i was a kid but when i went to college i fell out. for a while i was seriously considering becoming atheist/agnostic. however I chose to stay catholic for various reasons. I believe that I have not been brainwashed. I fully exercise my free will on a daily basis by choosing to believe in god

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Jif » Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:48 pm

i figured it's been long enough for most of the dust to settle that i can feel i can post this without bleeding the incident dry...

the facts behind the trayvon martin shooting...I talked about many of these facts this pretty extensively in the weeks leading up to the trial but this guy put them all together. Everything he says is well-documented by non-partisan means...autopsy report, police reports, photos, screenshots, etc.

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/68300-whittle/

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Harness » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:36 am

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Re: Random Political Thread

Postby Bacon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:42 pm

Harness wrote:Image

goes both ways


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