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Jif
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Re: Android Runtime

Postby Jif » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:05 am

dun dun dun... chips wrote:
Jif wrote:The new Android Runtime, ART, is finally out for testing on developer devices and some kit-kat ROMs. it will be replacing Dalvik, an aging JIT compiler built for compatibility. ART is an AOT compiler, or Ahead-Of-Time.

http://www.androidpolice.com/2013/11/06 ... in-kitkat/

ART, which stands for Android Runtime, handles app execution in a fundamentally different way from Dalvik. The current runtime relies on a Just-In-Time (JIT) compiler to interpret bytecode, a generic version of the original application code. In a manner of speaking, apps are only partially compiled by developers, then the resulting code must go through an interpreter on a user's device each and every time it is run. The process involves a lot of overhead and isn't particularly efficient, but the mechanism makes it easy for apps to run on a variety of hardware and architectures. ART is set to change this process by pre-compiling that bytecode into machine language when apps are first installed, turning them into truly native apps. This process is called Ahead-Of-Time (AOT) compilation. By removing the need to spin up a new virtual machine or run interpreted code, startup times can be cut down immensely and ongoing execution will become faster, as well.


Once this is fully implemented and apps have been updated, the android OS as a whole should be more responsive and fluid, apps should load faster and perform better, and battery life should increase noticeably. WIN-WIN.

as a programmer, i cant agree with you on this one, or at least not completely. the truest efficiency is one where both the program language and the compiler are making a run for a single set of hardware. just so long as there is more than one set of hardware android is meant to run, it will always have that inefficiency.
better? yeah, this should be loads better. best? definitely not. we shall see how this plays out in execution, but im not going to hold my breath for beaucoup speed.

u just described both consoles and iphones, yet PCs and android devices are considerably faster, respectively. they have way more horsepower, but the low end torque (aka response times and quick loading) were lacking. this fixes that.


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Re: Android Runtime

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:26 am

Jif wrote:u just described both consoles and iphones, yet PCs and android devices are considerably faster, respectively. they have way more horsepower, but the low end torque (aka response times and quick loading) were lacking. this fixes that.

in theory, consoles are a better gaming platform, and by a good margin. the proprietary silicon in the ps2 and 3, the cell cored cpu from ibm, couldve been the fastest. consoles gain the edge by not having code written for multiple hardware setups, as well as having an entire hardware block dedicated to only one thing: running the game. new gen consoles have lost that edge, since they are essentially amd pcs in a pretty case, but if a ps2 were as powerful, specswise, as a pc, it would beat the pc every time. one hardware, one job.
i dont think you quite understand the power of only having one hardware to code for, nor the extreme decrement for writing a universal code. ill put it simply, using code languages for example: java runs on everything, ever. if you need a program to run on every single computer, you write it in java. its very similar to what you are describing android to be soon: a code that compiles differently for every hardware. sounds great, definitely better than it was, which was one compiler for all the hardware. thats how java works, though, there is a compiler for windows, a compiler for unix, a compiler for linux, a compiler for macs, each remaking the code to work with a specific set of hardware, and its still: fucking. god. awful. worst code you can write in terms of efficiency. by leaps and bounds.
now, on the flipside, there is a code that only has one set of hardware it runs on, and therefore only one compiler: objective-c. if written in cocoa, the underlayer for mac os, its not portable to any other os. its been ranked to be one of the most efficient codes out there. ludicrously fast. why? one hardware. one compiler. EDIT: ive got to stick in here as well, to solidify the 'one hardware, most efficient coding' that assembly is the absolute most efficient coding style, and that is completely based on hardware, its written for, literally, one computer. you can be as awesome with higher-level code as you want, assembly will always be faster.
in terms of efficiency math and code analysis, writing one program for one computer is the most efficient way to design, and android as it is cant have that. it will never catch up with the likes of the iphone 5s, with equivalent hardware, for that reason alone.

also, bacon, nice.
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Re: Android Runtime

Postby Jif » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:09 pm


1- i had no idea the 5s was an actual, legitimate improvement over the 5, which was incredibly mediocre.
2- while the new iphone bested the benched androids in some of the 720p tests, the majority of GPU benchmarks, and all the non-anandtech gpu benchmarks didn't list the resolution. is it possible all those tests were run in the phone's native resolution? If so, the Android devices tests were pushing 3x the pixels (even mid-level androids are running 1080p now vs iphone 5s' console-esque 1136x640. android phones have been 1080p for 2 years and 720p for over 3.
3- it's obviously much faster than i thought. comparing the android phones to the old 5 has them beating it soundly, even with the older android phones. the new hardware in the 5s is obviously outstanding.

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Re: Android Runtime

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:08 pm

Jif wrote:2- while the new iphone bested the benched androids in some of the 720p tests, the majority of GPU benchmarks, and all the non-anandtech gpu benchmarks didn't list the resolution. is it possible all those tests were run in the phone's native resolution? If so, the Android devices tests were pushing 3x the pixels (even mid-level androids are running 1080p now vs iphone 5s' console-esque 1136x640. android phones have been 1080p for 2 years and 720p for over 3.
3- it's obviously much faster than i thought. comparing the android phones to the old 5 has them beating it soundly, even with the older android phones. the new hardware in the 5s is obviously outstanding.

most of those tests are independent of the display, prioritizing performance and speed of calculation.
also, yeah, but its also running a 64 bit os, so its no surprise thats its twice as fast.

i give credit to google for trying to make their system that much faster, since the every day use really needs the boost in speed, the framerate on some stuff is terrible. i feel, though, that they really need to analyze the base of their problem, not just try to speed up a broken foundation.
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Re: Android Runtime

Postby Jif » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:29 pm

dun dun dun... chips wrote:
Jif wrote:u just described both consoles and iphones, yet PCs and android devices are considerably faster, respectively. they have way more horsepower, but the low end torque (aka response times and quick loading) were lacking. this fixes that.

in theory, consoles are a better gaming platform, and by a good margin. the proprietary silicon in the ps2 and 3, the cell cored cpu from ibm, couldve been the fastest. consoles gain the edge by not having code written for multiple hardware setups, as well as having an entire hardware block dedicated to only one thing: running the game. new gen consoles have lost that edge, since they are essentially amd pcs in a pretty case, but if a ps2 were as powerful, specswise, as a pc, it would beat the pc every time. one hardware, one job.
i dont think you quite understand the power of only having one hardware to code for, nor the extreme decrement for writing a universal code. ill put it simply, using code languages for example: java runs on everything, ever. if you need a program to run on every single computer, you write it in java. its very similar to what you are describing android to be soon: a code that compiles differently for every hardware. sounds great, definitely better than it was, which was one compiler for all the hardware. thats how java works, though, there is a compiler for windows, a compiler for unix, a compiler for linux, a compiler for macs, each remaking the code to work with a specific set of hardware, and its still: fucking. god. awful. worst code you can write in terms of efficiency. by leaps and bounds.
now, on the flipside, there is a code that only has one set of hardware it runs on, and therefore only one compiler: objective-c. if written in cocoa, the underlayer for mac os, its not portable to any other os. its been ranked to be one of the most efficient codes out there. ludicrously fast. why? one hardware. one compiler. EDIT: ive got to stick in here as well, to solidify the 'one hardware, most efficient coding' that assembly is the absolute most efficient coding style, and that is completely based on hardware, its written for, literally, one computer. you can be as awesome with higher-level code as you want, assembly will always be faster.
in terms of efficiency math and code analysis, writing one program for one computer is the most efficient way to design, and android as it is cant have that. it will never catch up with the likes of the iphone 5s, with equivalent hardware, for that reason alone.

also, bacon, nice.


i've always known about this. it's why consoles are always extremely outdated even upon release compared to what's available on the PC. I know this as well regarding phones. However, there's a reason we play games on PCs versus consoles (or even Macs) and that's because they ARE so much more powerful. They do not use the same hardware as a PC, so while they are always much more efficient than a PC their very nature dictates they will always be less powerful overall. The difference with the iphone is that it does run on the same hardware are android phones. 64-bit execution doesnt likely provide much of an increase at all, but is merely a stepping stone for upcoming phones running 4GB ram. We can see on the PC how little improvement the 64bit versions of games or applications provide when utilizing little memory.

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Re: Android Runtime

Postby Bacon » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:54 pm

Jif wrote:64-bit execution doesnt likely provide much of an increase at all, but is merely a stepping stone for upcoming phones running 4GB ram.

I'm not saying i don't agree with you on this because i do a little bit but i would urge you not to take this too far. A Qualcomm exec got "soft-fired" for saying that Apple's 64bit processor is just a "gimmick".

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57609 ... eassigned/

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Re: Android Runtime

Postby Jif » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:54 pm

Bacon wrote:
Jif wrote:64-bit execution doesnt likely provide much of an increase at all, but is merely a stepping stone for upcoming phones running 4GB ram.

I'm not saying i don't agree with you on this because i do a little bit but i would urge you not to take this too far. A Qualcomm exec got "soft-fired" for saying that Apple's 64bit processor is just a "gimmick".

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57609 ... eassigned/

I thought samsung made the iDevice CPU/APUs. Is that no longer the case? Why does Qualcomm care? I think that Apple selling any benefits of its 64-bit APU is 100% marketing, but I also know it won't be in about 2 years. I believe they're laying the groundwork down know for when their devices will have 4GB RAM and require 64bit architecture to utilize it all.

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Re: Android Runtime

Postby dun dun dun... chips » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Jif wrote:
Bacon wrote:
Jif wrote:64-bit execution doesnt likely provide much of an increase at all, but is merely a stepping stone for upcoming phones running 4GB ram.

I'm not saying i don't agree with you on this because i do a little bit but i would urge you not to take this too far. A Qualcomm exec got "soft-fired" for saying that Apple's 64bit processor is just a "gimmick".

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57609 ... eassigned/

I thought samsung made the iDevice CPU/APUs. Is that no longer the case? Why does Qualcomm care? I think that Apple selling any benefits of its 64-bit APU is 100% marketing, but I also know it won't be in about 2 years. I believe they're laying the groundwork down know for when their devices will have 4GB RAM and require 64bit architecture to utilize it all.

samsung did make the a7 chip, but the guy saying that brought so much bad publicity due to the benchmarks proving him so drastically wrong, that qualcomm had to do something about it. having a hardware exec be so blatantly off was probably very embarrassing.
hardware standpoint, yeah, it is a wee bit marketing, since even the note only has 3 gb of ram, so the ability to use more than 4 isnt important, however, with the state of how the software utilizes hardware, it made ios about twice as efficient, with an extremely evident jump in speed. the usage of the processor for small stuff wont be as noticeable for 64 vs 32, but once you start heavily using resources it gets much more obvious, giving an average of twice the speed, overall. its most definitely solid groundwork, but any app written to use the 64 bit architecture will be faster, working towards twice as fast with large ram usage.
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